LOFTER冷笑话博主/后现代同人女/tb:鱼老板的养鱼场/ins/ao3:Floraomania

考据 | 关于瓦格纳与李斯特以及相关的大三角

因为很久以前发在百度的帖被吞过很多次且经常消失看不到,最终还是决定复制过来,在原本的基础之上重新作了些补充和修改。但本质上依然只是八卦,可以不用认真对待。还收录了很多我觉得很厉害的情书写法。

如同题目所表示的,这是一段非常复杂的关系,这段关系中包含有三个隐藏的三角关系,其一是瓦格纳-李斯特-柏辽兹的大三角,其二是瓦格纳-李斯特-维特根斯坦公主的大三角,其三则是瓦格纳-柯西玛-彪罗的大三角。


  • 时间线

初次见面在1841年(但是李子根本不记得自己见过对方),1848-1860密友时期,1861年因瓦与李的女儿柯西玛的结合导致两人友谊破裂,最终于1872年和好,1883年瓦去世前几周两人在威尼斯见了最后一面。


  • 简单的介绍

“Beloved, come and with me here in Zurich.” —Wagner to Liszt

瓦格纳曾说,我所有的成就都要归功于一个人,我最伟大最亲爱的朋友,这话一点都不夸张。

前两人曾经在1841年见过一面,那会儿李子已经闻名全欧洲而瓦格纳只是个不起眼的小角色,因此李子完全不记得自己见过他了(对此瓦格纳还颇有微词),但在偶然一次听到瓦格纳的剧之后,李子被他的天才所折服。

1848年李斯特接受魏玛大公的邀请搬到了曾经以歌德席勒文明的小城魏玛,开始专心作曲。同时他也希望自己像两位前辈一样,由他和瓦格纳一起领导音乐的繁荣,将魏玛变成一个音乐中心。


同年,瓦格纳参加革命失败被德国政府通缉,他先是躲入李斯特位于魏玛的家中Altenburg(阿尔腾堡),随后李斯特协助他伪造了护照,提供了大量资金,助他逃往国外。(*阿尔滕堡是维特根斯坦公主为了协助李子的创作租下来的,后来被魏玛大公的夫人买下让他免费使用)

魏玛大公拒绝上演瓦格纳的作品也是由于他是德国的通缉犯。据说瓦格纳在逃走之前躲在剧院的角落观看了李斯特排练的歌剧片段。在某部电影里还特意拍出了这个镜头⬇️

因为拍的太gay了感觉好还原哦就放上来了


为了表示感谢,瓦格纳将自己的歌剧天鹅骑士《罗恩格林》献给了李斯特(在魏玛时期,李斯特指挥了这部作品46次)。

李斯特非常佩服瓦格纳的天才——将音乐、戏剧、美术与诗歌整合在一起的整体艺术。可以说从一开始他就把对方视作高于自己的存在,因此在这段关系当作可以看到各种抖M窒息操作……

有位作者写“李斯特从没有对瓦格纳说过不(也没有对可爱的姑娘说过)”(我就想这两者有可比性吗?谁不喜欢可爱的小姐姐?但是有几个会喜欢瓦格纳???)

“Liszt now ranked Wagner at the highest pinnacle, above Beethoven and Goethe, because of his ability to creat an artwork that combined poetry, music, and the stage.”

“If I had to write a book on Wagner, I would happily use as an epigraph this remark by Victor Hugo on Shakespeare: ‘I admire everything’‘I admire like a fool.’

Nine years later, Liszt remembered that moment with an emotion and an intensity that is typical of the first years of their correspondence:

“How could I fail to think of you always with love and fervent devotion, especially in this town, in this room, where we first drew nearer to each other, and your genius flashed its light on me?” 

瓦格纳在他心中的地位甚至有可能超过了贝多芬莫扎特歌德……他曾在信中声称自己的书桌上仅放了瓦格纳一人的半身像,其他那些人都没被允许进入这个房间——他称之为the heart of my house

撇开艺术不谈瓦格纳这人纯粹就是个大猪蹄子,借钱不还、睡别人的老婆、欺骗路德维希二世的感情——只要是能够使他取得成功的手段,他啥事都做得出来。李子显然是没有将【人】与【作品】分开看待,因此在他的天才面前所有的缺点都是可以接受的。


在瓦格纳逃亡期间他们见面的次数不多,第一次是在1853年:


第二次是在1856年,李斯特的生日:

Liszt’s visit to Wagner is in October 22 was not auspicious. The Princess was there and a distinguished company.

Although Liszt remained steadfast and did all in his power to further Wagner’s interest, it was the Princess who began to drive the wedge between the two.

第三次是在Dresden:

The third meeting is in Dresden, in a hotel, where the two sealed a friendship that was meant tohave been eternal.

两人的关系趋于破裂则是当彪罗指挥的乐剧被打断,李斯特与魏玛剧院反对者的矛盾陷入最尖锐境地的时候,他给魏玛⼤公写了⼀封辞职信。远在瑞⼠不明情况的瓦格纳在错误的时间写了⼀封信向他借钱寻求帮助,被对⽅认为是不关⼼自己。

“Have you nothing at all to say to me? What is to become of me if everyone ignores me?” Liszt’sangry reply was one of the sharpest he ever sent to Wagner. He told him that he no longer saw anypoint in sending Wagner copies of the Dante Symphony or the Gran Mass (which he had earlierpromised to do).

(Wagner to Bulow)“I don’t know in what style to write to Liszt. I worry myself for weeks, intending towrite to him. All that I get from him is at most a reply, and about half the length of my letters. Hedoesn’t bother about me. I talk about him as an excellent friend, but he does not talk about me...”

尽管之后瓦格纳写了⼀封⻓达六页半超过2200词的长信请求原谅: 

Sink your pride for once and write to me as plainly and as comprehensively as I too frequently do to you, much to your annoyance.

然并卵,这一次李子并没有原谅他,这件事也就成为了后续各种事件的导火索。最终的爆发则是因为瓦格纳与柯西玛的恋情——这件事远在两人的关系冷淡之后,但还是造成了无法挽回的伤害。




需要提一下这封手稿是“Liszt's own copy of Wagner's letter to him in 1872”(手抄版!)


由于之前信中提到的会面各种原因没有去成,于是这次见面改到了魏玛。李斯特亲口说给学生西洛蒂(这位小同学写过一本回忆录):

“[瓦格纳的演讲]非常另人感动,以至于我忘记了一切,除了他所有好的方面。”´_>`

李斯特对瓦格纳的帮助可谓是无私的,无论是怎样的要求他都会尽可能地帮助对方完成,有次瓦向他借$200,目前并没有什么钱的李子向彪罗借了$200来支持他,而这时候李子自己的交响诗的盈利状况甚至还不如瓦格纳的乐谱。


另一个例子是为了筹集剧院的资金,瓦格纳拟在匈牙利布达佩斯举办一场演出,但当地人都不买账。于是李子表示要加演弹一首贝多芬的曲子,然后票就都卖出去了。

不仅仅是对瓦格纳,李斯特对所有的朋友都很天使(他不仅是希望自己成功,而是希望世界上所有一切美好的作品都能被大家看到。),而反过来……几乎没有人能做到这种程度,有一次他写道“Once Liszt helped Wagner, but who will help Liszt?”

-

不过若是说两人之间只存在虚情假意的话,我是不同意的,从很多细节都可以看出,无论李斯特还是瓦格纳都曾有意维持过这段友谊。

比如瓦格纳曾写过一篇反犹小作文《音乐中的犹太主义》,不支持反犹的李子曾经写信询问他这篇文章是否出自他之手,瓦格纳给出的回复是(他知道对方一定是明知故问):不管你怎样看待这些——只是想象——我并不知道你的确切想法。我知道也真切地感受得到你是怎样的人,在这一点上你一定会有完全不同的看法。但是到此为止吧。世界上总会有一些事情会造成我们之间意见的分歧,如果你不喜欢我提到的任何观点,闭上眼不要去管它们就好了。(so its possible to be a Wagner-lover without being a Jew-hater.)

瓦格纳是真的很会讲话!!!他曾经亲口对李子说“For me, thou art(=古英语,就是you are的用法) the whole of Germany.”这谁受得住啊!!!?

其他的一些节选:

瓦格纳在《Eine Mittheilung an meine Freunde》(与友人的通信)中写道:“我现在知道了最满足、最高贵、最为完全的爱,唯一真诚的爱,……这爱将我提升到了艺术的高度!……我知道了即使所有的人——即使最亲密的朋友——都离我远去,他也依然会在我身边帮助我、他的名字就是FRANZ LISZT。”

“By our very love for a great artist we as good as say that, in taking his creation to our heart, we adopt with it those individual peculiarities of view which made that creation possible to him.—Now, as I have nowhere more distinctly felt this love’s enriching and informing power than in my love for Liszt…”

“But above all greet my Franz for me, and tell him the old, old story, that I love him!”(写于给Marie的公开信中)

“ While I am compising and scoring I think only of YOU, how this and the other will please you, I am ALWAYS dealing with you.”

还有一些写给柯西玛的:

And when she[Cosima] " asked him[Wagner] childishly " whether he loved her, he replied: " Ishould like to know what else I do but love you.”

But he was in high spirits and said on one occasion, throwing his arms round Cosima: " Yes, a charming wife was what Beethoven never had. It was reserved for a poor old man like me that is why I have this irrational belief in myself." And one fine morning in the garden he picked her apansy and offered it to her with the words: " I was thinking about our love! I do not know what to call it, but I know that it is the most ardent of things, and will never allow us to leave each other.”

Then he came to her bedside in the evening and said: " I simply cannot say how I love you, it is still like a dream to me that I am wholly yours."

太强了吧orzzzzzz


  • 瓦格纳李斯特通信集(又名:情书写法大全)

这本书里除了对于艺术的讨论和借钱(狗头)以外就是各式各样的表白和表白,以至于英译者在前言部分引用了《罗密欧与朱丽叶》中的台词(认真的吗)……

里面的画风是这样的:

W: You, my only one, the dearest whom I have, you who are to me prince and world, everything together, have mercy on me.

L: Continue to love me, even as I am cordiallt devoted to you.

W: A thousand kisses from
Your
Richard Wagner 1853


W: I now ask you, who at the bottom of his heart share my faith more than do you, who believe in me, who know and demonstrate love as no one else has proved and praoticed it yet?... Well, my higest hope will be fulfilled: I shall see you again.

W: How can I describe my feeling? When has an artist, a friend, ever done for another what you have done for me? Truly, when I should be inclined to despair of the whole world, on single glance at you raises me again high and higher, fills me with faith and hope; I can't conceive what I should have done without you have made of me; it has been indescribly beautiful for me to observe you during that space of time...


W: My brain is a wilderness and I thirst for a long, long sleep, to awake only when my arms are around you. ...best and dearest of friends, have my eternal thanks for your divine friendship, and be assured of my steadfast and warmest love.


L: Be happy in the Grisons, you godlike man. When you work at the 'Nibelungen', let me be with you, and keep you have received me -- in truth and love.


W: However, in this matter also you must do as you like. Before all, take care that you continue to love me, and we see each other soon.


L: Send me soon what I ask you... I'm always and wholly yours.

L: You know that my whole soul is devoted to you, because I love you sincerely, and that I always try to serve you as well as I can...


W: Remember me to all at Altenburg; and if you can, continue to love me... if you can, love me with all your heart. Will you not?... Farewell for today. I send you many greetings from a longing heart.


L: The essential thing is that you love me, and consider my honest efforts as a musician worthy of your sympathy. This you have said me in a manner in which no one else could say it.


W: Take my hand and take my kiss. It is such a kiss as you gave me when you accompanied my home one evening last year.--You remember, after I told you my sad tale. Many things may lost their impression upon me. The wonderful sympathy whuch was in your nature, will follow me everywhere as my most beautiful remembrance.


W: Be mine today, wholly mine, and feel assured that by that means you will be all that you are and can be.

有位作者在一本名为《瓦格纳与自杀》的书中声称瓦格纳他想要跟一部分朋友(特指李子)以及那位魏森冬克夫人殉/情(dbq我想不到a joint suicide还能有什么更好的翻译)。后来他在《特里斯坦与伊索尔德》中确实写了这样的剧情。


为了与不懂法语的瓦格纳通信,一直用法语进行书写和思考的李斯特用德语跟他写了十几年的信。虽然德语才是他的母语,但是由于很小就搬去法国,母语基本上忘干净了。一开始他的德语讲得并不好:“Liszt tried to speak German to them, but they claimed they understood his English much better.”在波恩音乐节上他也试图用德语演讲,但由于说得很磕磕绊绊最终放弃了。就算在魏玛那几年,他与魏玛大公的通信也是用法语完成的,他很少在家中会使用德语。

While the title are in German, the contents are mainly in French, the language in which Liszt always perferred to communicate. Liszt, in fact, was never at home in the German language. It is true that he was brought up in a German-speaking part of western Hungary, by German-speaking parents, and that Germab was therefore his mother tongue.…Thereafter he lost his German; it was only in later life and with difficulty that he recovered its partial use. This is rather surprising when we recall that the mature Liszt spent thirteen years in Weimar.

此外,他所写过的所有支持瓦格纳的文章都是用的法语(瓦:朋友你看到我绝望的眼神了吗)……而且为了用法语念起来更容易一些还擅自改了歌剧的名字,文章的题目把“Tannhäuser”写成了“Tannhaüser”……(换作别人估计要被原作者削哈哈哈哈)

To promote Wagner's cause where he could not speak up for himself, Liszt wrote two essays in the wake of the Weimar performance of Tannhäuser. (As was his wont, he wrote in French and gave his essay the misspelled title "Tannhaüser", which, he argued, made pronunciation easier in French.)

而这一边,瓦格纳的法语比李子的德语糟糕多了。他待在巴黎的时候就因为糟糕的法语而迷路,“With my bad French, I am simply lost.”因此1876年他就立了一条规矩,在我家“万福里德”只准讲德语,不过晚年时期他的法语已经说的相当不错了,偶尔还会教自己的孩子们说一两句(讽刺意味)。

另一件很好玩的事是只要跟李子待在一起就一定会听到他吹法国或者拿破仑,瓦格纳曾经目睹了有人发表反对意见结果被教育所以他从来不会说233。虽然他很喜欢黑法国但其实他身边一群法国人还有他很喜欢用法国香水还给李子送过一顶淡粉色的帽子x


  • 第一个三角

“We, Liszt, Berlioz and Wagner, are three equals, but we must take care not to say so to [Berlioz].”

——Wagner wrote to Liszt

这三个人的关系就很迷,在外人看他,他们明显属于同一派别,也同样是先锋音乐家的代表,但其实三人之间存在很深的矛盾(主要是瓦格纳与柏辽兹)。

产生这个大三角的主要原因在于柏辽兹的高冷...被他用亲密形式“tu”称呼的朋友只有三个人,李子还是其中唯一一个音乐家,可见李子在他心中有着特殊的地位,而瓦格纳的出现不仅影响了他们之间的友情,也使得两个人的艺术目标愈加遥远。后来,他与同样讨厌瓦格纳的维特根斯坦公主结为同盟。

两人早在1840s其实就认识了,因为瓦格纳曾经在巴黎的报纸上发表了10篇文章和一篇短篇小说…(两个搞音乐的文学家.jpg)那会柏辽兹对他的印象反而还好,在1855年之前——也许是他还没有意识到瓦格纳带来的影响是如此之大——两人基本上还算是友好的。

但在1855年之后,柏辽兹明确表达出了对瓦格纳的反感,他曾嘲笑瓦格纳的音乐是“猫叫派音乐。柏辽兹拒绝将自己与瓦格纳联系到一起,甚至在回忆录的背面注明:“ was nothing bearing on either Liszt, or Wagner, or the music of the future. ”(与李斯特、瓦格纳或未来音乐没有任何关系。)(在这之前,他曾经将回忆录寄给李子,拜托对方译成德文并且在自己死后发表。)他在写给维特根斯坦的信中也常常跟对方一起吐槽瓦格纳有多么sb😂



(图片:瓦格纳与柏辽兹的会面)

相反地,瓦格纳倒是出乎意料地佩服柏辽兹,他在很多篇文章中都提到了对方,还曾将《特里斯坦》的乐谱寄给对方(毕竟花可谓浪漫主义革新派的万物起源)。然而并没有什么卵用,就在同一年,柏辽兹在巴黎发表了一篇针对瓦格纳及其追随者的讽刺文章。他在文章中发明了一个词叫做 ‘school of mayhem’ (l’école du charivari),指向瓦格纳的音乐。

To the dear and great author of Romeo and Juliet

By the grateful author of Tristan und Isolde

——Wagner, inscription on the score of Tristan presented to Berlioz in 1860

瓦格纳在自己的文章里经常提到柏辽兹,而柏辽兹对于瓦格纳的提及——几乎没有。瓦格纳的话题对他来说已经变得敏感,以至于他把它完全从自己的记录中删去了。在跟李子的通信中两人也都小心地避免去谈论瓦格纳。

这里面可能还带有一丝自私的成分,瓦格纳曾经在信件中阻止李斯特复兴柏辽兹的音乐,但柏辽兹从未做过类似的事情,他对待自己的作品推广也非常之佛系,他认为没有必要将将自己的音乐强加给不情愿的观众。

他对李斯特写道:I persist in my plan to stop walking towards the mountain; perhaps the mountain will finally start to move in my direction. (我并不想朝山走去,或许山会向我走来)。

而李斯特认为:I maintain and defend the right of the artist to impose on the masses what is beautiful and superior(我维护并捍卫艺术家向大众强加美和优越的东西的权利)。

李斯特显然希望调和他最崇拜的两位当代作曲家:这是他宏伟设计的一部分,领导一场以魏玛为中心的先进音乐运动。但是另外俩人——很大的一个缘故是语言不通的问题,瓦格纳憎恶法国和法语,柏辽兹的德语水平也十分捉急——这导致他们不能很好地理解对方(也没有兴趣理解)。

虽然柏辽兹李斯特两人的友谊依然保留了下来,其代价是:

“由于我们谨慎地避免了任何音乐有关的话题,我们一起度过了愉快的几个小时。”

Liszt came to spend a week in Paris, we dined together twice, and since we carefully avoided any musical conversation we spent a few delightful hours together.

最后用这段来作为总结好了

These last few days we talked here a great deal about you with Wagner, and you can imagine with what affection; take my word for it, I believe he loves you as much as I do myself. (Berlioz to Liszt)


  • 第二个三角

维特根斯坦公主为了支持李子的创作而租下了整个阿尔滕堡,两人之间显然存在于某种协议,比起情人,更像是合作者的关系,又或者兼而有之,李斯特在一封信中提到“Princess Wittgenstein (my new discovery of a princess, as Mme Allart would say, with the difference that we have no intention of falling in love).”?

公主作为李子的忠实粉丝,自然不能理解他对于瓦格纳的奉献,其中必然隐含着嫉妒之情,据说公主曾要求李子在书信中以“tu”相称,但李子却坚持使用敬语“vous”(也许这是他的习惯,他与女性的通信往往都是使用敬称),他与与瓦格纳的通信则不是如此。

她对于瓦格纳的厌恶可以从这段话中体现出来:“Ah, sir! Don’t talk to me ofthese great betises?” In after days, when ever Wagner’s name was mentioned, her favourite expression was “these great stupid things.”

公主对于1872年两人和好也感到十分⽓愤,她在信中⽤过一个⽐喻是说您去找他就像耶稣去找加略人犹大。李子在写给公主的一封信中给出如下回复:“In all the circumstances, I couldnot refuse [Wagner], it was against my nature, which I do not separate from myconscience...”

而后当公主指责他对于指环表达了过度的热情时,李子直接给她写了一封信称:我放弃了回罗马见您的打算。

相同地,瓦格纳也非常不喜欢维特根斯坦公主。



瓦格纳曾在自己的回忆录《My Life》中记录了一个小插曲,关于李斯特的《但丁》交响曲:



李斯特在这首曲子的结尾设置了一个开放性结尾,让指挥可以自行选择跟随pianissimo弱音或是fortissimo强音,这种做法纯粹是由于维特根斯坦公主坚持将结尾描绘得壮丽,但瓦格纳认为这样修改纯粹是垃圾,于是他保留了两个版本。

瓦格纳在得知不止一个版本的结尾被保存下来之后,用一种不无讽刺的口吻总结道:这就是我与李斯特那位朋友维特根斯坦公主的典型关系!

公主跟李子的关系似乎也很难解释,不同的作者持有不同的看法……很多李子的早期传记作者,都认为他和公主的关系是based purely on friendship。。。柏辽兹把公主称作他的companion(同伴),而瓦格纳在自传里干脆说成了“his friend”。无论如何,两个人关系其实相当不错,当时巴黎有很多人嘲讽公主长得不好看,李子还写了一封信专门回应,说公主非常美,拥有非常美丽的心灵之类的,但在爱情层面…鬼知道…

公主带着一个女儿叫Marie,这位小公主却意外地跟两人关系很好,瓦格纳曾写过一封著名的公开信给这位小公主,题目为《论李斯特的交响诗》。瓦格纳在信中会用“the child”代指小公主。他们几人还有一次迷之旅行,李子回巴黎探亲不知道为什么带上了瓦格纳…然后小公主要去,公主不放心也加入了陪着女儿,于是场面就奇怪地变成了某人同时带着男友和女友以及一个别人家的小朋友回巴黎探亲…而这次是瓦格纳第一次见到未来的妻子。



据同时代人回忆,瓦格纳曾经表示他很遗憾过去从未与李子真正地生活在一起(live in real union),并且谴责公主的不良影响,还说公主是一个野人x。而且连他都怨念对方太过于浪了,总是到处跑,他向彪罗抱怨说他很⽣气,为什么,为什么他就不能成为我们中的一员呢? 

据说⽡格纳曾经邀请他一直住在Wahnfried,但是被拒绝了(这件事在柯⻄玛日记中有提到,在李子与他们⼀起待在威尼斯的那段时间,⽡格纳有好⼏次⽣气都是因为他擅自离开)

Richard Wagner had also expressed a desire to bring him to Munich and wrote to Billow that he was out of humour with Liszt because he would not stay there. " Why, why can he not be one of us? "

这几个人的艺术观其实到最后都是分道扬镳了的。拜罗伊特的艺术氛围并不是一个像魏玛那样包容开放的地方,李子当然不会想留下。


  • 第三个三角

瓦格纳与柯西玛的爱情故事暂时不在讨论范围之内,只提一下与本次主题相关的部分。

首先彪罗——他称自己的名字为B(erlioz)ul(iszt)ow(agner),他是魏玛学派的忠实支持者,同时也是瓦格纳与李斯特共同的学生,就算在自己被绿之后也依然尊重瓦格纳,后来因为实在受不了别人的风凉话才投奔到莱比锡乐派。

至于柯西玛,据同时代人的描述,她非常地像她的父亲,⽐如彪罗说她在某些⽅面就像一⾯镜子,瓦格纳描述她为"Liszt's wonderful image, but of superior intellect."

彪罗就在写给李子的信中曾这样表达过自己对柯西玛的感情(令人迷惑)


基于以上,有些作者提出了如下观点:

One of the reasons why Wagner fell in love with his second wife, Cosima, was because she reminded him of her father, Franz.

One of the reasons he fell in love with Cosima was because she was the daughter of Liszt. Marrying Cosima was a way for Wagner to keep a part of Liszt with him always.

还有人说其实瓦格纳更喜欢李子的大女儿Blandine,但是她嫁给了拿破仑三世的外交官而且很早就去世了。这个故事有些谷歌图书上有提到,我没有很仔细看所以也不讲了。

顺便提⼀句瓦格纳跟彪罗的关系其实是这样的:每当⽡格纳遇到不方便向李斯特直说的事情,他都会告诉彪罗(比如他说公主的坏话,他们闹矛盾了之类的),还有他的各种倾诉也会写信给彪罗,然而结果……(。)

历史真的比小说狗血系列

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